Lovranski 1 Oliver 0

Man, I cringe just watching other wrestlers use the crossface now. I used to love and admire Chris Benoit. But I still haven't been able to watch one of his matches since the murders last summer. I can't separate the man from the wrestler.

This is a subject, that even in the crazy world of wrestling, can't explain. Why did Benoit do it? Everything he accomplished as a performer, every match, title bout, title reign, ppv he sold, the merchandise that had his face on it, everything was wiped away because of what he did last summer. I loved Benoit, his matches were always entertaining, they told a story and always ended up with Benoit getting a standing ovation, it's tough to watch those moments now. I met Benoit at a Wal Mart when I was younger, it was right before he came back from his surgery, and he was one of the nicest people I had ever met. Now, looking back...it kind of makes me sick to think that I shook hands with someone, took a picture with a person who did such disgusting acts? It's tough to seperate the person from the performer, in this case, I can't. I was always a big Benoit fan, but now, after everything, I can't stand to see him.

If Benoit was inducted into the Wrestler Observer Hall of Fame before he commited his attrocities. You have to leave him in there because a precedent was created when the Pro Football Hall of Fame kept O.J. Simpson when we knew he had done the premediated murders. Granted, he was found not guilty, but the police investigation and prosecution buggle the the entire case. Simpson was inducted in the Pro Football Hall of Fame before the murders took place, the irony of it all was his slain wife was at induction ceremony. The Baseball Hall of Fame kept Ty Cobb in with his racist attitude and alledged killing of a man. My point is that the sportwriters who had a vote were able to separate both men's acccomplisments from their off-field deeds. And to bring legitimacy to a Hall of Fame whether it is Hockey, Rasslin' or Twiddly-Winks, you MUST separate the man's accoplishments and his sins. Personally, I was angry at Benoit for what he did to his family, but people tend to forget or forgive over time. I will admit that I cringe at the thought that he was my favorite wrestler, but the feeling goes away as time goes by.

It reminds me of something I heard Jim Rome say when talking about Warren Moon. He is a great wife-beating quarterback. That's why he is in the football hall of fame. He is one great wife-beating hall of famer. Once a guy hits his wife, that's how he should always be remembered. Warren Moon = greatest wife beating quarterback ever. Chris Benoit = greatest wife and son murdering wrestler ever.

I have to agree with Hank. As much as the acts that Benoit committed make me sick, we have to be careful about the 'slippery slope' we are on when we start making these decisions.
There are a lot of professional wrestling bodies doing Hall of Fame's right now and if we start deciding who should or should not be on those based on their actions outside of the ring, it might be a full time job. If we take the people off who committed murder, there goes Benoit and Snuka (on ballot for '09) and others I'm sure. What about rape or trafficing or prostitution - they're all terrible crimes but do we remove all of those people, because I promise you the lists will get shorter.

The problem with the whole thing is that I actually agree with Dan on this one, in theory. I don't want to celebrate Chris Benoit based on what he did, but, I find it hard to say that his accomplishments in the sport of professional wrestling should not at least be recognized, strictly because of the last three days of his life. It makes me a little sad to say it, but, based on the vote that panel had I think they made the right decision, Chris Benoit successful worked to shatter the 'age of the big man' in pro wrestling and he deserves that credit.

All that said, his inclusion or lack of which doesn't force me to go back and watch him in action - and I won't.

I don't think being in the hall of fame means we are celebrating the man. it's more of a recognition. I can't celebrate and have fun watching Benoit matches any more, but I also can't deny or ignore the awesome wrestling moments he's given me as a fan.

Plus, if you're a man whose influenced a generation of peers in your field, then you are a part of history and it basically makes you legend.

Not all legends have happy endings.

Through that women beater out of the hall of fame! And don't let that cheating son of bitch Edge in too, or that Liar HBK, Oh and kick Bret out too for cheating on his wife!

I understand Dan's discomfort watching Benoit matches now but in his time he was the best professional wrestler night after night. Remember a bad Benoit match??? Me neither. Remember the professional wrestler, not the monster. Chris Benoit, professional wrestler, belongs in the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame.

Chris Benoit was mentally ill. People who are mentally ill cannot be held resposnsible for their actions. I cringe thinking of his little boy and his last moment on earth. It makes me so sad that such a great guy ended life and the lives of two others the way he did. However, Benoit was the way he was becuase he dedicated his life to entertaining us with his phenomenal in ring skills, and all the injury sustained while doing so.

I have trouble watching Eddie, Curt, Owen, Rick Rude, and a host of others too. It feels very perverse to be watching folks doing something that brought them such tragedy, but that's the business of wrestling and we all watch and cheer and then feel bad when bad things happen. If you want Chris out of the hall of fame, I can't really blame you, but then I don't think you should be watching wrestling at all because odd are someone you are watching is going to die badly. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Benoit was inducted into the Wrestling Observer HOF back in 2003. This means that the voters felt everything he did up to that point was sufficient enough to warrant him entry into the HOF. Anything that happened after his induction should be irrelevant when considering his place in the HOF. He was inducted before he won the WWE World title and before he murdered his wife and son. If he had not been in the HOF at the time of the murders, then I would support taking his name of the ballot. Even if they kept his name, he probably wouldn't get many votes either. I can't watch a Benoit match anymore either, but the wrestling "experts" decided to induct him way before the end of his career. I would personally prefer if the Observer only inducted wrestlers who were inactive or deceased for at least two years prior to their induction. This way only wrestlers whose career's have ended would be inducted. I think this would be a much easier way to distinguish a man's career from his personal life.

The can pull him from the Hall of Fame, eliminate any reference of him from the WWE, burn his merchandise and lay sanctions against any performer who mentions his name. But that will NEVER change what kind of performer he was, his work ethic, or how he treated the fans.

Dan, I don't have to take your challenge because I know I will feel exactly the same as you. I will never watch a match with Benoit in it again if I can help it. As another poster above says, I even hate seeing other wrestlers perform the crossface. Frankly, I can't understand why Vince never decreed that move off-limits. Nobody needs to use that move and we don't need to celebrate anything about Benoit's career.

To me its a pretty black and white issue - kill your wife and son, lose all right to a legacy or accolades for your "accomplishments". While there may be many, many factors that contributed to the cocktail of madness that led Benoit to do what he did and some, such as brain damage from concussions or depression from the loss of friends, are tragic, the fact remains that personality and hundreds of choices made by Benoit over the course of his life were pretty big contributing factors as well. Give the same cocktail of excuses that have been proffered for this man to any other randomly chosen man and there is no guarantee that a similar tragedy would occur.

Chris Benoit, once my favorite wrestler, killed two people. One of them was a 100 percent innocent and defenseless child. His child. He should not be honored for anything. And remembered only as a horrible lesson of what can happen when everything spirals horribly out of control.

I also feel the same way if I watch a Chris Benoit match now. That being said, if he was previously inducted into the Hall of Fame, I don't think he should be removed.

Great Post Dan. I disagree with you however. The inring accomplishments of Chris Benoit are seperate from his personal life, and should be respected regardless of his tragic end. With that being said, I also believe that he was mentally handicapped due to brain damage at the time of death, and at the at the time of his death, was a regular performer for the WWE. How they refuse to conduct regular medical examinations on their talent and how a performer could work under these circumstanses should be unforgiveable. Chris had severe brain damage due to his in ring performances, was a contractor for the WWE at the time, and was cleared to wrestle everynight and continue to damage his brain. If you take Chris Benoit out of the Hall, you should take Vince Mcmahon out of the Hall as well and insure he will never enter it in the future. Just as you would punish the employer of a man who leaves the office christmas party drunk and kills two people, should you punish Vince who let Chris work and continue to do the damage that tragicly ended his life and others. The blame should be shared.

i totally don't agree what benoit did but what he did was on his own personal time and i think people should not let what he did in his personal time let it interfere with what he accomplished in the ring and i do agree with putting him in the hall of fame

I'm with Karsten on this one. What he did was unforgivable, but I refuse to remember him for the last 3 days of his life. Unlike the WWE, I refuse to wipe Chris Benoit from all memory. I just liked his character and his in ring work. I found a majority of his matches to be quite enjoyable. It's not like I knew the man personally and wanted to grow up to be just like him. What he did to his wife and son, no matter what the reason, was still inexcusable and wrong. Does that mean I now have to hate the man and destroy everything I have that to has anything to do with Chris Benoit? No.

Well said Jason! Vince could give 2 shits about his employees and should share the blame for a lot of injured performers.

Hey guys I made a petition to get Dan "The Mouth" Lovranski removed from the airwaves, hopefully you guys can pass it along and help us get rid of this cancer. United we are strong ** replace \ with forward slash ** www.petitiononline.com\Mouth\petition.html

I watched ECW ONS 2005, Eddy vs. Benoit. I didn't have those thoughts when I was watching the match. I was watching a WRESTLING match. Wrestling, to some, is an art form and I was watching 2 artists. I think the problem Dan has is watching a murderer that has contaminated the industry he covers. I think he has problems separating wrestling and his own life because he seems too consumed with wrestling. Wrestling is his life, his wife and is best friend and when something bothers him stemming from wrestling, his emotions are taken to new heights.

I can watch Benoit matches all right. I still add "asterixes" in my mind as I watch, but I can enjoy the wrestling. I'll usually look at Benoit and say, "Man, I wish you hadn't gone crazy." But I'm not getting rid of my "Hard Knocks" DVD any time soon. I definitely think he should stay in the Hall of Fame, since he was inducted well before he committed murder. I also don't know why we need to bother talking about it any more, since it isn't going to change. But whatever.

''There's no holding me back, I'm not driven by fear I'm just driven by anger'' - Chris Benoit theme

I know the lyrics don't mean much and you shouldn't read too deep into things but....

I don't get sick watching Benoit wrestle. His incredible talent in wrestling has nothing to do with what he did outside of the ring. It shouldn't. For example, I love James Brown, but I never once listen to his music thinking "what a terrible husband he was!" His personal life isn't what made him great it was the music he made.

I think though Chris Benoit murdered his family and did those horrible things, he still is a legend in the sport.

Though he may not be in hall of fames in the future of any kind because of his murders, that really doesn't matter. Wrestling fans around the world WILL remember him as one of the BEST to ever step into the ring.

When he committed those murders, he wasn't in the right state of mind, as evidenced by the brain scans he received some months later. This is not to make up excuses, but is to say that it is almost safe to say that the trauma he suffered to the head throughout his career drove him in parts to do the things he did. As a human being, he failed. As a wrestler he succeeded and though he may find himself excluded from "Hall of Fames" that really don't mean anything to a dead wrestler, his legacy will live on as one of the best, and newer wrestling fans will come to know his name just by the work that he did.

I gotta disagree with you bro, you are way off base. I think watching Benoit matches now actually makes them better than ever, and more realistic. I find myself thinking "holy crap, he killed his own son with the crossface, but Saturn just escaped it!" Like what if Benoit actually was trying to KILL his opponents in the ring this WHOLE time, but they were just so strong they actually escaped? I have an entirely new respect for how tough Benoits opponents actually were.

Hey Ryan. Show some respect. You are making jokes out of the horrible murder of a child.

Ryan...I think you're confusing fantasy with reality. As for Benoit's performance in the ring, I've heard more than one worker say that, despite how aggressive his worked appeared at first glance, in reality, he was by far one of the most "gentle" workers in the industry. Rarely, if ever, hurting anyone.

Yeah, I can't do it. I have to disagree with the Polanski argument, as well. I mean, he's not on screen the whole time, staring at you, his name being called out, being aggressive. That's Benoit. That's a killer.

Half the time I used to be on Youtube was to wach old Benoit matches, but that's been taken from me.

Dan, I feel the same way watching a Benoit match now. Its guilt. Knowing I cheered an unbridled degree of violent aggression. Knowing that my cheering amounted to approval of his behaviour and his style. That's why I can't understand your comments last Sunday on the LAW regarding Jeff Hardy. You stated that despite his recent slip ups with alcohol, he should be given a run with the WWE title. If the WWE was a responsible company, they would not let Jeff wrestle again until he has his demons under control. We don't need any more guilt complexes about dead wrestlers who should have been helped instead of cheered literally to death.

I feel that Benoit should be in the hall of fame but not yet. The wrestling fans need time to heal. What he did hurt evryone in wrestling and everyone who watches wrestling. He is one of the greatest wrestlers in histroy and belongs in the hall of fame but not now. Once everyone has a chance to heal then he can go in, it will make it an easier pill to take.

I find that Benoit's matches are at least more entertaining to watch than any Hulk Hogan or Andre The Giant matches and they're in the HOF.And he had more talent and athletic ability than those two combined.But I can see that people are more forgiving to drug users than someone who had a brian of an 85 year old man suffering from dementia.

benoit is the man and will always be the man I am trying to find every benoit match recorded if u got tapes link me up

Did anybody notice watching the Discovery Channel promotional ad of their shows and there is a segment where a wrestler is using a Crossface on another person. It kinda creeped me out noticing it Just saying it, that is all.

Dan Lovranski and all you other Benoit detractors need to keep an open mind here.If Wayne Gretzky did likewise to his family tomorrow,that doesn't mean his numerous records that he set would suddenly be nonexistent and that the NHL would pretend he never happened.All smart wrestling fans will never pretend Benoit never happened.His countless contributions,accolades,and passion for this business that ultimately drove him to take the lives of his family and himself will be unparalleled.

How Ridiculous is this topic! first I completely agree with the fact that his personal life as tragic as it ended, should NOT interfere with his professional accomplishments. Lets also not forget the facts with all the new medical information coming out now a days it is most likely that his years of self abuse and neglect due to trying to sell not just himself but also his profession has most likely caused his seriously unstable mental condition. So after giving everything he had all his life to his profession and then finally having all of it catch up to him on one tragic and gruesome day you want to say he does not deserve to stand with his firends and fellow employees is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD

I am at 100 percent agreence with Mouth. Benoit should not be in any hall of fame as well as any other wife and child killers. I think if you agree that Benoit should be in the hall you need to get your head checked. If Chris Benoit had lived through this all he would be in jail for life and probably would have been beaten to death by other inmates. Chris Benoit comitted a horrible crime and that is enough reason to remove him or any other person from a position of recognition. Why would anyone want to talk about the career of Benoit in a positive manner? I can not get this through my head.

I see how everyone takes the police words as gospel and yet I' ve seen rumors that Kevin Sullivan may have done it or even ignore the possibility of brian damage.

Everyone says they hate Benoit for doing what he did but what about if ''Benoit'' was your brother or best friend. How would you feel about him. You'd still love him and say he was a nice guy. And in the world of wrestling it feels like we are all family, so that means you all disowned a family member. You cant re-write history.

Think about what you would do if it was your borther?

And what if Nancy Benoit was your sister?

In the interest of fairness, we'd better remove Harley Race and Ric Flair from the Hall of Fame, as well. Since I've read numerous alligations regarding both having abused their wives. Which, if we're following the aforementioned theory, should taint how I view these two. Who just happen to be my most favorite wrestlers of all time. Dating back to 1983.

I'm with the group that says Benoit should not be removed from the Hall of Fame. First off, I read an article by Dan Wahlers that said that Benoit was voted into the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame by a group of many legendary wrestlers and current ones, and was an early inductee. Also, the induction took place before Benoit committed his heinous acts in June of 2007. If Benoit wasn't inducted as of yet and he was going to be inducted say...today, than it would be a harder decision to make.

Also, we don't know to what extent Benoits brain was screwed up by the concussions. According to the doctors, his brain resembled the brain of an 85 year old Alzheimers patient! He probably wasn't in his right state of mind what he did what he did. Don't get me wrong...what he did was completely unforgivable. However, it looks to have been the result of his many concussions and the wrestling business as a whole. There's no need for the unprotected chair shots to the head and everything else!

Benoit was a great wrestler and what he accomplished in the business should be honored. The crimes he committed speak for themselves but the hall of fame is to homor professional achievements. Look at all the jerks and jacks in the business and they are not have the talents that Benoit was.

I'm a little late to the game here, but I think this is a subject that has two very interesting sides, and I understand the emotion behind both of them.

I have been a hardcore wrestling fan all my life, since I was 4 and the first Wrestlemania took place. Chris Benoit was one of my absolute favourite wrestlers, from his days as Wild Pegasus right through until the end. I was too young for the the early days of the four horsemen, but when Benoit joined that group, I was an instant fan. I followed his career through every promotion, every storyline, every match I could see...he was a pleasure to watch in the ring and I dare say that there may never have been anyone to do it as well as Benoit did it.

Still, as Dan said in his post, you cannot look back on the man's career and see the wrestler you loved and admired anymore...everytime someone says the name Chris Benoit or I see an old DVD or tape with a Benoit match on it, it leaves me cold and only once since his death have I been able to bring myself to watch one of his matches...it's not the same anymore.

However, and here is where my opinion will differ drastically from the majority of those posted here, I don't holf the same level of resentment towards Chris Benoit that many people do. While I am repulsed at his actions and have forever changed the way I think of Chris Benoit, the lingering effect of the Benoit tragedy has been a slow but constant wilting of my love for professional wrestling. I hold Chris Benoit accountable for his actions, but I don't believe he was solely to blame for them. While Benoit deserves every bad thought someone thinks of what he did, to associate the man who entertained us for nearly 20 years with the man who killed his family and himself is not as easy as many have made it out to be.

Perhaps the largest contributor to those events was Benoit's unwillingness to care for his physical well-being by listening to his body and altering his style to reduce the trauma he received to his head with every chairshot or diving headbutt. This is a major reason why I say Benoit is so much at fault. He should have known that he could not continue to do what he did and should have been more fearful of the reprecussions, even if there was no way to know it would have turned out in this horrific manner. He should have cared for himself out of love for his family, and unfortunately, due to his negligence, it was his family that paid the highest price.

However, I hold a large amount of contempt for the wrestling industry and those who operate it. While it sometimes takes a catastrophic event such as this to effect any real change, when society witnesses such an event and does not make the appropriate changes to see it never happens again, it only adds to the devastation of the incident. The faint silver lining in such an awful story could have been that it resulted in substantial changes to the way the industry abuses it's performers and resulted in better medical testing and coverage to ensure the health of wrestlers all over the world and make sure a horrible event like this never happened again. The border-line criminal negligence of the WWE, TNA and small promotions all over the world who still allow their performers to receive unprotected hits to the head and who do not conduct extensive neurological medical evaluations of their performers continues to eat away at my enjoyment of the world I once loved like few other things in this world.

My view of Chris Benoit is forever changed, but so is my view of the business as a whole. While legendary performers like Mick Foley (for whom I hold the highest regard, even to this day) used to receive my respect and adulation for their willingness to put their bodies on the line even after their careers had predominantly ended, I know feel nothing but distaste and distain for someone who is being so selfish that they do not know when to walk away and care for their families while they still can. Wrestlers like Jeff Hardy, who I used to love for his risk-taking, now leave me shaking my head in disbelief. I would much rather watch his brother Matt, who, while not as breathtakingly exciting, tells an effective story and wrestles athletic, safe matches more often than not.

So, Chris Benoit is to blame, absolutely, because more than anything, he chose to put himself through such trauma out of his love for the sport, but so is the industry that allowed him to do so without medical intervention. I have grown to have a distaste for both over the last year.

So, I believe Chris Benoit should remain in the hall of fame, because I do not believe that Chris Benoit the wrestler and Chris Benoit the murderer were the same man. If his actions had been entirely self-induced by, say, a drug overdose, then I would throroughly support his removal, but since the industry, at least in my opinion, is also greatly at fault for the damage done to Chris Benoit's brain that resulted in these terrible events, I don't think one should be separated from the other...removing Chris Benoit's story from the annals of professional wrestling is denying a pivotal chapter where the industry was given the opportunity to evolve and move beyond it's darkest day, and to do so would remove the shame that the industry should feel for it's blatent neglect to just that.

Dan, I've had the misfortunte of having to visit my mother in the hospital multiple times as a child, because my father was a sociopath. The woman walks around with a lifetime of physical and psychological scars that won't heal. None of which include the threat of impending violence, should he choose one day to resurface and kill us both. As he once promised he would. Death is horrible. Living as we've had to, can be a very close second. So again. Nobody should be absolved, if Benoit wasn't. Just because nobody died, that shouldn't make it any more digestable.